03 June 2008 @ 11:35 am
Mirage Quickie #11  
Since quite a number of fans have PMed me about this issue, I figured it'd be helpful if I just post it here for others who might be curious about the depiction of Minako's rape in the anime. I've been asked if there's any difference in the anime and novels for that scene in episode 11, Naoe's behavior in particular.

The answer is yes. Anime!Naoe was looking all doom and gloom at Minako, and said (according to the fansub by LadyN), "I love him." Novels!Naoe was smiling at Minako, his eyes devoid of any strand of sanity, and said, "I love you." Again, I've no idea why they changed Naoe's manner in the anime, but nevermind.

Unlike other fans, I do not look so kindly on Naoe's actions. And if Minako sincerely forgave Naoe the very next morning, I'm sorry to say that I find it a tasteless cliché. Even if Minako had the capacity to forgive such an atrocity, it takes time and at the rate things were going 30 years ago, I don't think she had even begin to come to terms with the trauma of the rape, her shock at Naoe's behavior (she was under the impression he was a gentleman all this while), the fear of being held captive by the enemy as a bait to lure Kagetora, personally witnessing Kagetora's death (he could not use his powers because of Ranmaru's kyuuryoku kekkai hence shielded Naoe and Minako against the full onslaught of attacks with his own body) before her soul was expelled from her body.

I've seen essays analyzing the reasons for Kagetora's decision to entrust Minako to Naoe, all of which conveniently ignore Naoe's mindset for committing something so despicable. So the overall impression that I get from this is some kind of sick justification for Naoe's rape of Minako or assignment of blame to Kagetora, as though Kagetora had put Naoe in a position where he could not help but rape Minako. Rape is rape. No amount of mind games or psychological traps or whatever from Kagetora is cause for Naoe to rape Minako.

As for Kagetora's decision, I don't believe he deliberately sent Minako away as a sacrificial lamb to test Naoe's feelings for him (this would actually contradict with his innate character of putting the safety of others above himself). However, he did, for perhaps 0.01 millisecond, feel a little satisfied that Naoe ultimately committed a sin out of jealousy, ie. proof that he indeed and still had such strong hold over Naoe. But that fleeting moment of satisfaction turned into a deep-seated guilt whereby, even after 400 years, Kagetora feels himself to be so filthy an existence that he is undeserving of even a chance to apologize to Minako. I'd say Naoe and Kagetora are even now, after all, Naoe himself is a little smug that Kagetora went mad without him.

So if Minako shouldn't have been entrusted to Naoe, who else could Kagetora have chosen? Note that at that time, the rest of the Yashashuu were strongly opposed to having Minako under their care. Choosing Nagahide was obviously out of the question. While Minako won't risk getting raped or killed with Haruie or Irobe, it's highly likely that they would prioritize the war with Nobunaga or even Kagetora's life over her safety should the situation take a turn for the worse. So it all comes down to Naoe in the end, who was supposed to be Kagetora's most loyal and obedient retainer.

Honestly, I love the character of Naoe. If I didn't, I wouldn't be interested in this relationship in the first place no matter how much I love Kagetora. While I don't find the rape itself forgivable, my sympathy for him comes from his suffering after the incident and his realization that he had done something irreversible despite the instances where he still shoots himself in the foot.
 
 
Current Mood: sore
 
 
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[identity profile] erah-haruna205.livejournal.com on June 3rd, 2008 07:29 am (UTC)
i think i did post at the community about 'is naoe a sympathetic character and can he be forgiven?" long ago and if im not mistaken, 99% of us claim NO he can't be forgiven. like you said above, rape is rape. but i do agree he is a sympathetic character. sigh, lady_nara-san even made a thesis about his crime. but despite what he did, i still love naoe too. and minako....... well, it kinda agravates me that we hardly know her P.O.V during the after-rape. theres a number of theories that she forgive him just so naoe won't hurt her again and/or she doesn't have anyone to depend other than naoe against nobunaga.

"Novels!Naoe was smiling at Minako, his eyes devoid of any strand of sanity, and said, "I love you."

btw, i didn't know anime!naoe said "i love him". i thought he said "i love you". (if im not mistaken he said "aisheteh...minako...")

and if minako wasn't screaming after naoe coner her to the wall, i wouldn't have known he raped her (few years ago when i first watch the anime) few minutes later we saw naoe holding onto kagetora's body near the fireplace and minako was trying to sit up. her clothes were barely ripped! no obvious trace she's been forced.

why can't the anime producer make another mob anime!!?? its unfair that some animes can lasts with 50 to 90 episodes and has good quality. sigh....
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[identity profile] quaint-twilight.livejournal.com on June 3rd, 2008 11:12 am (UTC)
I can't remember what Naoe said in Japanese (actually I can't even remember what was in the sub since I haven't watched the anime for so long) but apparently in the fansub it's 'I love him'. But thanks for pointing that out, I'll edit my post to make it a bit more specific.
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[identity profile] erah-haruna205.livejournal.com on June 4th, 2008 02:39 am (UTC)
i watched back the anime and naoe said ".....minako.... aishiteru...." and my subtitle said "i love you minako" although with my little knowledge of japanese, i think naoe said he loves kagetora before saying i love you to minako. sigh, this is quite confusing. but then again the dvd i own is from the hong kong subtitle which is famous for its literal and quite often poor translation.

and i thought of something yesterday. maybe the image of minako was a little bias? it happened 30 years ago and only naoe was there when minako was forced out of her body and the rape. naoe might have unconsciously 'edit' his memories of how minako reacted the next morning? no girl would even be able to think rationally after something that traumatizing. but anyway, like you said, we could only speculate until sensei made a prequel about her.
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[identity profile] prismangel.livejournal.com on June 3rd, 2008 07:40 am (UTC)
It's really creepy to imagine him smiling at her before raping her. I don't think that Naoe can be easily forgiven for that. It really makes me wonder if Minako's character has been skewed because of the way they said she reacted. Being all forgiveness after being raped seems just a little off...you would think she would probably just be real afraid.

Thanks for clearing that up about the discrepancy between the anime and manga!!
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[identity profile] quaint-twilight.livejournal.com on June 3rd, 2008 11:18 am (UTC)
I think the only way we can have any insight into Minako's POV is for sensei to write a prequel on that particular situation. For now, all we fans can do is speculate.
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[identity profile] lady-nara.livejournal.com on June 3rd, 2008 11:27 pm (UTC)
Wow, thanks for all the insight!

Your comparison between the anime and the novels on this point is very, very interesting. From what you've said, it seems like the anime made it appear that Naoe was more aware and deliberate in what he was doing than the novels did. In the anime he seems very off-kilter, but quite clear on what he was about to do, and weirdly calm about it. Actually, now that I think of it, his level attitude is reminiscent of his demeanor when he dragged Takaya into his hotel room, threw him on the bed, and began loosening his own clothing, all with slow, controlled movements, and calmly told Takaya that he was going to do "it" to him. The main difference was that his eyes held an unbalanced glint when he was with Minako which wasn't present in his confrontation with Takaya (at least at that point).

The fact that Naoe gave a crazed smile and said "I love you" to her...well. I was trying to figure out the "I love you" thing, and I remembered that later Kousaka made some remark to Naoe like “who were you really holding in your arms?” So, could the “I love you” really have been directed at the “Kagetora” which the unhinged Naoe was preparing to ravish in the person of Minako? Hmm, except that gets weirder if he prefaced the love confession with her name. Did he, in the novels?

I completely agree with your argument as to the indefensibility of Naoe’s actions. It’s definitely a love the sinner hate the sin sort of thing. Of course, this particular sinner makes it much easier to love him because he is so disgusted with his own sin, unable though he seems to keep from repeating his mistakes. I find it especially tragic that he was apparently initially determined not to get in the way of Kagetora/Minako, to let Kagetora find the comfort he so desperately needed with someone else. His recollection of that failed determination while he was promising himself not to ruin Takaya’s friendship with Yuzuru is just…painful.

No matter what Kagetora might or might not have done to Naoe, I haven’t heard anyone arguing that Minako is anything less than entirely innocent. Which would mean that any damage inflicted on her is completely undeserved and unjustifiable. I, too, am highly skeptical of the claim that Kagetora deliberately put his defenseless and blameless beloved in danger in order to satisfy his own ego or torture Naoe. The novels seem pretty clear that Kagetora’s decision to put her under Naoe’s protection was a sign of his trust in Naoe, despite their personal conflict, and it was made out of desperation. Even Nagahide, the person most likely to see Kagetora in the worst possible light, seems to be of that opinion. I also rather wonder whether Kagetora wasn’t also trying to protect Naoe, using this as an excuse to get him out of a pretty hopeless situation. Naoe would never have left his side otherwise, for sure. So he sent away the two people he cared about most. He certainly showed that he cared more about them than the fight when he sacrificed himself for them later on.

As to Minako’s capacity to forgive Naoe’s crime against her…this is getting so long I’ll probably just go ahead and make a whole post on the character of Minako in my lj.
In any case, absolutely fascinating stuff, thank you very much for posting it!
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[identity profile] quaint-twilight.livejournal.com on June 5th, 2008 12:59 am (UTC)
at the “Kagetora” which the unhinged Naoe was preparing to ravish in the person of Minako?
At that point, Minako was still Minako, Naoe didn't rape Minako after transferring Kagetora's soul into her body, unless I've misunderstood your meaning.

In the novels, it's "I love you, Minako." Personally speaking, I find those words empty. Naoe might as well have said "I hate you, Minako" and it wouldn't have made any difference, considering what was going through his mind during the rape.
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[identity profile] lady-nara.livejournal.com on July 1st, 2008 06:12 am (UTC)
At that point, Minako was still Minako
Ah, yes, I just meant that it is first implied by Kousaka and then mentioned in the latest of Asphodel's vol. 5 translations that Naoe, though he held Minako, was in a sense making love to Kagetora in his heart.

Does he actually say her name? In the anime he doesn't (if I remember correctly), but does he in the novels? I'm thinking of this line from chapter 3 of vol. 5:

I love you--he violated Kagetora within his heart even as he screamed those words.
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[identity profile] dbzdoll.livejournal.com on June 4th, 2008 12:19 am (UTC)
I actually watched the MOB anime in English and Japanese and the English Naoe says "I love you" while the Japanese subtitles say "I love him", so I am totally confused about what Naoe actually says in the anime! I could never figure out why he said different things in both versions, but now I see the "I love you" is actually the original. So what does that mean? Is he being honest? Does he just feel lust and, like too many men, is calling it love?

Thank you for sharing this information because otherwise I'd have no idea about this fascinating confusion. Just another reason to find this series intriguing!
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[identity profile] quaint-twilight.livejournal.com on June 5th, 2008 01:12 am (UTC)
Well, I think it was anything but lust/love, considering how he was thinking that this woman needed to disappear for snatching Kagetora away from him.
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[identity profile] fantasygirl49.livejournal.com on June 4th, 2008 03:35 am (UTC)
in my opinion, what naoe did to minako was inexcusable, rape is rape and i also doubt minako would easily forgive him for doing that to her since even if she could forgive him, it would take time...we don't know what exactly happen since there's no minako's pov to compare...but i also feel pity for naoe because he regretted his action and hated himself, for what he has done can never be undone, since he causes kagetora to feel responsible for what happen to minako, but also to cause a break in their relationship...

i don't think kagetora has any other intention when he sent minako away with naoe, he probably thought he could trust minako with naoe...i always wonder when did things between naoe and kagetora become twisted, and they started to play their winner/loser game.

the reason in the novel he said "i love you" to minako could be an excuse to make him feel better about the rape or to assuade her, or it might be because he imagine minako as kagetora like since he can't have him he has to get to the one closes to him that must be what was running through his mind, etc.
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[identity profile] quaint-twilight.livejournal.com on June 5th, 2008 01:17 am (UTC)
I think there was always tension in their relationship right from the very first time they met, eventually that hate twisted itself into love ^_^; My impression is that their relationship was at its worst 30 years ago (I guess Vol 10-11 would come in as a close second).
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[identity profile] meganinhiding.livejournal.com on June 5th, 2008 11:55 pm (UTC)
Thank you for the clarification; before I had chalked up the dub's "I love you" line as being censored or a typo and its weird to find out that its the original line in the novels. The anime can be confusing thanks in part to translation errors such as when in episode ten where Naoe is speaking to a hallucination of Kagetora. Naoe relates how he forced Kagetora into Minako's body and then he is asked what did he do to Minako after that and then it shows a vague shots of Minako cowering while Naoe approached her; this would give the impression that the rape occurred after the soul transfer. Reminds me of how after seeing episode 7 for the first time I speculated that Minako had been Kagetora's past "incarnation"(host body doesn't feel right) and that Naoe had raped Minatora.

I completely agree that Naoe is wholly responsible for the rape and I tend to think that Minako was telling Naoe what he wanted to hear. When I first saw the anime I was strangely pleased that Naoe's deep dark secret really was something terrible that most people wouldn't be able to forgive and that Naoe truly was guilty. Kuwabara thankfully never makes excuses for Naoe; she just presents his POV and the reader is free to form her own opinion about him.
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[identity profile] openingtheclosetdoor.blogspot.com on August 26th, 2008 05:03 am (UTC)
So, I've been watching this series after recommendations on Netflix (English Version). Question? Is it out there in Yaoi book form?
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(Anonymous) on September 2nd, 2008 05:59 pm (UTC)
Yes, it's quite a long series actually, the anime doesn't even come close to touching the full story. Sadly it's never been officially translated into English =( But even if you don't speak Japanese, quaint-twilight is one of the best translators I've come across on the web and you can find quite a few translations on this website.
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